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grahame
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« on: April 20, 2021, 10:53:58 » |
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Not sure where ... but I know this needs joining up to another topic ... will get back to it (of none of the other moderators / admins does) From New Civil EngineerHow Britain could upgrade its rail network to replace domestic flights
Britain should “think along the same lines” as German and French transport planners who are aiming to drive a shift from domestic flights to rail, according to Expedition Engineering director Alistair Lenczner.
Last week French lawmakers voted in favour of a bill to end short-haul internal flights where the same journey could be made by train in under two-and-a-half hours. The planned measures will face a further vote in the Senate before becoming law.
Meanwhile, the German Aviation Association (BDL) and Deutsche Bahn (DB» ) signed an agreement last month committing to improve connectivity between aviation and rail and offer faster connections between cities, which could lead to the discontinuation of some domestic flight routes.
“I applaud France and Germany for doing it and I think Britain needs to be thinking along the same lines,” Lenczner told NCE.
“It’s that sort of thinking you need to respond seriously to the climate situation but it needs concerted effort and coordinated thinking across sectors.”
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Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 06:45:01 » |
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How far can you get from London in two and a half hours by train, or more importantly how many constituencies can you get to?
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 06:52:20 » |
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How far can you get from London in two and a half hours by train, or more importantly how many constituencies can you get to?
London to Manchester is just over 2 hours by train, can't really imagine it affecting any other domestic UK▸ routes of any significance. Glasgow/Edinburgh closer to 5 hours by train, against 80 minutes in the air. |
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 09:42:08 » |
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Such a suggestion only works from a traveller's perspective if the end-to-end journey time and cost is considered and documented. On the UK▸ mainland UK for distances up to 200-250 miles where an 'intercity' type service is available rail will frequently win on time but lose on cost.
I however do not use UK mainland domestic air services largely because of a preference for being deposited somewhere reasonably adjacent to my intended destination, regardless of cost or journey time.
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broadgage
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 16:31:09 » |
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Meanwhile in the UK▸ , rail travel becomes ever more expensive whilst air transport is encouraged by various grants, subsidies, and tax breaks.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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stuving
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 16:49:45 » |
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Meanwhile in the UK▸ , rail travel becomes ever more expensive whilst air transport is encouraged by various grants, subsidies, and tax breaks.
I can't think of any kind of grant, subsidy, or tax break that the air transport industry has benefited from that railways haven't. And then there's capital investment; central government has funded most of that for the railways, and none for airports - except perhaps for the road system, to some extent. Local government, and all those pseudo-local quangos we now have, contribute to both but mostly to rail. So if you want an explanation for the railways' inability to compete on cost, you'll need to look elsewhere. |
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broadgage
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2021, 17:01:06 » |
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Her Majesty's Government (HMG) have announced that by 2035 that UK▸ carbon emissions are to be reduced by 78%
Hard to see how this is to be achieved without drastic reductions in air travel. If the remaining 22% is to be used for heating of existing housing, and for limited electricity* production, and other high priority uses, then there might well be NOTHING left for aviation.
Or perhaps they propose not to reduce actual fuel used but simply to purchase indulgences, er sorry trade and offset.
*We should be able to produce MOST of our electricity from renewables, but significant natural gas will still be required when wind power is lacking, as has happened recently.
Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 12:50:18 by VickiS »
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2021, 22:08:13 » |
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How far can you get from London in two and a half hours by train, or more importantly how many constituencies can you get to?
London to Manchester is just over 2 hours by train, can't really imagine it affecting any other domestic UK▸ routes of any significance. Don't let the good folk who use Leeds/Bradford airport hear you say that...... |
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2021, 06:40:26 » |
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How far can you get from London in two and a half hours by train, or more importantly how many constituencies can you get to?
London to Manchester is just over 2 hours by train, can't really imagine it affecting any other domestic UK▸ routes of any significance. Don't let the good folk who use Leeds/Bradford airport hear you say that...... .....how many significant domestic routes operate from Leeds/Bradford? Can any of them be replaced by a train journey of less than 2.5 hrs? |
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TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 6438
The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2021, 09:29:43 » |
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HMG have announced that by 2035 that UK▸ carbon emissions are to be reduced by 78%
Hard to see how this is to be achieved without drastic reductions in air travel. If the remaining 22% is to be used for heating of existing housing, and for limited electricity* production, and other high priority uses, then there might well be NOTHING left for aviation.
Or perhaps they propose not to reduce actual fuel used but simply to purchase indulgences, er sorry trade and offset.
*We should be able to produce MOST of our electricity from renewables, but significant natural gas will still be required when wind power is lacking, as has happened recently.
Aviation accounts for about 2% of global emissions. Spend ten years and billions of pounds removing that, and you will only have 76% to go. Doing away with the need for back-up gas generators for the many days that wind power doesn't cover our consumption will save a lot more, and will be best achieved by having a reliable source of electricity that doesn't emit carbon dioxide to provide today's base load for the UK, plus extra to cover the needs currently met by 25 million gas boilers and 20 million+ fossil-powered vehicles. Wind turbines could then be used to produce synthetic aviation fuels and hydrogen should the wind blow hard enough, and if it doesn't, we can use the train. I am sure that HS3 and HS4 will be welcomed by all. I reckon a rapid expanse in nuclear power will do the trick, hopefully using small modular plants while researching alternatives to uranium, such as thorium. This could be in France, with interconnectors, if they agree, so that we don't have to appease anyone local. I am open to other suggestions, with full explanations. |
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Now, please!
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2021, 09:50:03 » |
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Meanwhile in the UK▸ , rail travel becomes ever more expensive whilst air transport is encouraged by various grants, subsidies, and tax breaks.
I can't think of any kind of grant, subsidy, or tax break that the air transport industry has benefited from that railways haven't. And then there's capital investment; central government has funded most of that for the railways, and none for airports - except perhaps for the road system, to some extent. Local government, and all those pseudo-local quangos we now have, contribute to both but mostly to rail. So if you want an explanation for the railways' inability to compete on cost, you'll need to look elsewhere. Trains in the UK run on "red diesel", which is taxed at a lower rate than the diesel used in cars and lorries. Aviation fuel has no taxes whatsoever. In fact the 1944 Chicago Convention makes it a criminal offence (in those countries which have signed up, which is most of the world) to tax aviation fuel. |
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Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
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TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 6438
The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2021, 10:52:13 » |
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Trains in the UK▸ run on "red diesel", which is taxed at a lower rate than the diesel used in cars and lorries. Aviation fuel has no taxes whatsoever. In fact the 1944 Chicago Convention makes it a criminal offence (in those countries which have signed up, which is most of the world) to tax aviation fuel.
If you propose to remove the tax on red diesel altogether, I am sure the move would be welcomed by rail operators. It won't save any emissions though - we need an electrified railway to do that, and I haven't seen the Prime Minister's proposals for how that will be achieved. |
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Now, please!
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2021, 14:43:17 » |
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That was just an example of a tax break the aviation industry benefits from but rail does not, rather than a proposal.
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Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
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TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 6438
The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2021, 17:40:19 » |
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Then you didn't propose removing the tax from red diesel, which is good. As you point out, aviation fuel's tax free status, shared by a few other things, is a matter of international treaty. If it seems unfair, don't forget that train passengers don't pay Air Passenger Duty. Unilateral taxation by UK▸ could well be counterproductive.
An answer to a question I have long pondered can be found in today's Times, concerning the potential of batteries. If our electricity was made entirely by wind and we had every battery made in the whole world within the last 10 years, and the wind stopped blowing, they would keep us going for about two days. If, of course, they were all fully charged. On the showing of recent days, that would have left us in the dark for some nine days as a minimum.
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Now, please!
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