This is a test of GDPR / Cookie Acceptance [about our cookies]
Really irritating test - cookie expires in 24 hour!
Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
 
Re: Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by Electric train at 17:59, 15th October 2025
 
For the railways' infrastructure, there are other noses in the taxpayer's wallet, too.  All the consultants and contractors etc, with all their cash-absorption.  Getting anything done appears to cost way more than it could, and has been disproportionately inflated above the cost of getting it done years ago, when it was largely done in-house

Contractors have always worked on the UK railway, indeed contractors built the infrastructure and many of the locomotives and rolling stock.   

There are a number of things that inflate the cost of railway infrastructure contract work, these contracting companies include risk into their pricing this risk value is understood by NR as it has declared values.  The risks are work cancelled / delayed due to NR / TOC operational requirements, this can often be at short notice.  The planned access not being granted.
The antisocial hours the work is undertaken raise staff costs.   Machinery hire costs are much higher than normal construction plant due to its specialist nature.

Cost could be drastically reduced if lines were closed during the normal working week, but that would be unpalatable to the travelling public 

Re: Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by grahame at 17:42, 15th October 2025
 
For the railways' infrastructure, there are other noses in the taxpayer's wallet, too.  All the consultants and contractors etc, with all their cash-absorption.  Getting anything done appears to cost way more than it could, and has been disproportionately inflated above the cost of getting it done years ago, when it was largely done in-house

I totally agree with you ... my graphic is grossly oversimplified.  I was tempted in drawing it to add extra boxes for categories such as these - probably branches off the tree (which could better be drawn the other say up?) nourished from the same trunk.

Re: Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by Witham Bobby at 17:23, 15th October 2025
 
For the railways' infrastructure, there are other noses in the taxpayer's wallet, too.  All the consultants and contractors etc, with all their cash-absorption.  Getting anything done appears to cost way more than it could, and has been disproportionately inflated above the cost of getting it done years ago, when it was largely done in-house


Re: Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by grahame at 15:01, 15th October 2025
 
There is promised a new independent passenger watchdog - enveloping Transport Focus & the ORR's passenger parts plus other 'bits' still being developed (e.g. accessibility). We will need to await the Railways Bill in order to discover exactly what this being is - and whether there will be any requirement on it to consult passengers, or 'stakeholders' - & if the latter, whether the definition of 'stakeholders' includes passenger representatives, or indeed, actual passengers/users or simply the defined consultees.

A couple of weeks further to wait, I suspect for that.

Indeed - such excellent questions.  What will it be? ... with questions within that "who will be on it and consulted", "will it have teeth or just be a talking shop", "what will its remit be" and "will it, truly, be independent or always have one eye looking over its shoulder at its funding"?

Re: Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by ChrisB at 11:41, 15th October 2025
 
What organisations do we have left over which are not in the DfT funding tree, that can take a view that's not subject to taint by being on that tree?  Well - there’s Railfuture. The Campaign for Better Transport. 

There is promised a new independent passenger watchdog - enveloping Transport Focus & the ORR's passenger parts plus other 'bits' still being developed (e.g. accessibility). We will need to await the Railways Bill in order to discover exactly what this being is - and whether there will be any requirement on it to consult passengers, or 'stakeholders' - & if the latter, whether the definition of 'stakeholders' includes passenger representatives, or indeed, actual passengers/users or simply the defined consultees.

A couple of weeks further to wait, I suspect for that.

Rail industry money-go-round. How does it work?
Posted by grahame at 10:34, 15th October 2025
 
The rail industry money-go-round. What are the consequences on service and investment? How does it work?

In the UK we are told that the farebox accounts for two thirds of the rail industry income, and that it's a far higher proportion in the UK than in our neighbours on mainland Europe. Which is said to be why our fares are said to be "so much higher".  But how does that money from the farebox get passed through the system - how is it controlled and spent?



When trains were operated under a franchise model (No. 1 on my diagram, dashed blue lines), the money collected from the farebox went to the train operating company - subsidiaries of First, Stagecoach, Arriva, and others and was onward spend, subject to franchise terms, as they wished.  Some elements of those franchise terms were restrictive, mind.

As things moved from franchise to management contract, and as the shock of covid decimated the farebox, farebox money was all passed after collection to The Treasury (no. 2 on my diagram, green lines).  As I understand it, payment from The Treasury to the Department for Transport to run the railways was fiscally controlled / budgeted and didn't take account of the Farebox income, resulting in the contracts being such that innovative investment ideas were squashed, even if there was every likelihood that spending a pound would bring an extra ten pounds of revenue

We have now moved - again as I understand it, to the income from the farebox going to the Department for Transport (no. 3 on my diagram, the red line) which now allows for the consideration within that department of the effect on income of what they spend - so it's balance sheet sensitive and not just cost sensitive. Should the DfT wish to spend a pound to get ten more in income, it can now do so without having to go to The Treasury to ask.

The black lines on my diagram show various key bits of the money-go-round - some of them may not be huge sums in the overall picture, but never the less they represent the major funding flows for the organisations shown. 

I worry that - as shown on my diagram, key funding to Network Rail, the Train Operating companies (including the operator of last resort), Passenger Focus, the Office of Road and Rail, and the Community Rail Network ... and also to a myriad of others such as fledgling GBR, RAIB, RSSB, National Rail and the Railway Ombudsman are all controlled by that single organisation diretly.  Indirectly (?) they also hold purse strings / financial control over the RoSCos, Staff costs (salaries), Rail Delivery Group and these days over Community Rail Partneships.

What is ... missing ... from the diagram is an indication of any truly independent co-ordinators of customer and market (potential customer) input. And at a time when there's re-organisation and replanning underway, all the various current organisations funded via the DfT and also the individual employees in them will be concerned as to their own future.  Naturally so, but perhaps to the exclusion for practical purposes of the interests of the customer / passenger.  Is there a risky concentration of power - both judge and jury if you like to call it that - in the Department for Transport?

What organisations do we have left over which are not in the DfT funding tree, that can take a view that's not subject to taint by being on that tree?  Well - there’s Railfuture. The Campaign for Better Transport.  Our members of parliament. Our local community user groups though these can apply through CCIF and where they are station friends groups for the King's Shilling.

I am ... heartened ... in the knowledge that there are so many excellent people working in the organisations I have listed in this article, and that the vast majority of them appreciate the need for a public transport sector that's financially aware, safe, and provides transport with both the environment, and quality of life to the forefront. I just hope and 'pray' that the powers that be set things up for the future to meet those needs / desires, and that in the immediacy of the next year or two they remain at the forefront, being developed, and not swept up nor abandoned for the moment in the rush to look good and have a place in the new setup.

 
The Coffee Shop forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western). The views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit https://www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site at admin@railcustomer.info if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules. Our full legal statment is at https://www.greatwesternrailway.info/legal.html

Although we are planning ahead, we don't know what the future will bring here in the Coffee Shop. We have domains "firstgreatwestern.info" for w-a-y back and also "greatwesternrailway.info"; we can also answer to "greatbritishrailways.info" too. For the future, information about Great Brisish Railways, by customers and for customers.
 
Current Running
GWR trains from JourneyCheck
 
 
Code Updated 11th January 2025