Thank you, Fourbee, for bravely floating a response. I think that you'd agree that the Routeing Guide is not altogether explicit on the treatment of vias.

Here then, is my initial investigation that caused me to ask the question.

My starting point is the National Rail Journey Planner (JP) and the journey is WESTBURY-OXFORD ; OPEN RETURN.
(The Open Return bit was what I needed, but conveniently avoids the clutter / confusion of advance fares).

FACT1
The JP offers journeys via Melksham at the NOT VIA READING fare and journeys via Reading at the NOT VIA LONDON fare.
Journeys via Bath have been suggested, but with "We have been unable to find a valid fare. Please re-plan your journey".

INVESTIGATION 1
Perusing the Routeing Guide (RG), both Westbury and Oxford are routeing points. The only valid routes specified are using map RB (described as "routes via Reading to Birmingham").
A look at map RB shows that Bath-Swindon-Didcot-(Oxford) is one line on the map, but it doesn't go through Westbury.
There is a separate line on RB that goes Castle Cary-Westbury-Reading(-Oxford).

So Westbury-Reading-Oxford is the only valid route specified in the maps

Westbury-Melksham-Didcot-Oxford is a valid route, I presume, because it is the shortest route.

Westbury-Bath-Didcot-Oxford isn't valid, because it is neither a mapped route, nor the shortest route.

All of the non-advance fares for WSB-OXF are either "not via Reading" or "not via London", so we cannot see any other options that would allow travel via Bath.

In the interests of furthering this investigation, let's try Westbury to Tackley (a station north of Oxford, for which Oxford is the relevant routeing point in the RG - this means that for RG purposes, the same map is used for WSB-TAC as for WSB-OXF).

FACT 2
The JP offers the following:
0705 Westbury via Melksham and Didcot. Fare £138.10 (anytime return route DIDCOT PARKWAY)
0909 Westbury via Reading. Fare £94.90 (SVR return route NOT VIA LONDON)
1112 Westbury via Bath and Didcot. Fare £73.20 (SVR return route DIDCOT PARKWAY)
1512 Westbury via Bath and Didcot. Fare £73.20 (SVR return route DIDCOT PARKWAY)
1554 Westbury via Reading. Fare £71.20 (SSR return route NOT VIA LONDON)
1646 Westbury via Reading. Fare £71.20 (SSR return route NOT VIA LONDON)
1912 Westbury via Bath and Didcot. Fare £73.20 (SVR return route DIDCOT PARKWAY)
2116 Westbury via Melksham and Didcot. Fare £71.20 (SSR return route NOT VIA LONDON)


INVESTIGATION 2
So, we now have fares offered for the route via Bath. But why?
For WSB-TAC, the relevant routeing points are WSB and OXF, so the same routeing restrictions would apply as for WSB-OXF.

BUT...
Whereas for WSB-OXF, the fares are either NOT VIA LONDON or NOT VIA READING (and no others),
for WSB-TAC, the fares are either NOT VIA LONDON or VIA DIDCOT PARKWAY.

Taking the trains in turn:
0705 WSB: This would be valid as the shortest route. Fare offered is cheaper than the NOT LONDON alternative and route does go via DID so all OK

0909 WSB: This is a valid route in the RG. The £94.90 offered is the cheapest valid SSR fare, as the £73.20 VIA DID fare is not valid until 0930.

1112 WSB: Valid via Bath! The fare quoted , £73.20 is the SVR via DID. There is a cheaper SSR fare, which is valid time-wise, but the route restriction is NOT VIA LONDON.

1512 WSB: Same as 1112 WSB.

1554 WSB: The journey is via RDG. This attracts the lowest fare, the £71.20 SSR route NOT VIA LONDON.

1646 WSB: Same as 1554 WSB

1912 WSB: Same as 1112 WSB

2116 WSB: Via Melksham, this attracts the cheapest fare, the £71.20 SSR Route NOT LONDON.

CONCLUSIONS
1. The VIA DIDCOT is forcing some sort of route analysis that is not just a filter of the list of valid routes for the end-to-end journey.
2. Because the VIA DIDCOT option is not offered as an SSR (Super-offpeak), the fares presented by the JP can be counter-intuitive.

I have not established yet whether or not the JP is analysing WSB-DID and DID-TAC as two separate routes specifically for the VIA DID fares, though this would seem to be logical.

Any comments so far?

 
Really good that Faresaver participated.

Mark

 
Agree that it's probably the subject line.

That aside, does off-peak / advance purchase ticketing work against people's travel during heatwaves? During hot weather, by the time GWR's super-off-peak windows open I'd want to be nowhere near public transport. (And have to fess up that I've never managed to get my head round SWR's more recent ticketing.)

Mark

 

Thank you, even though the ship has now sailed.

The Exeter clone of Tudor Evans is the delightful former bus driver and, AFAIK, active RMT Regional Organiser Phil Bialyk. Although I regard him as the man who tried to cancel some of the May 2026 Exeter local elections.

 
A huge, huge "Thank You" to Faresaver, their directors, families, driver and bus for joining with MTUG (Melksham Transport User Group) in the Melksham Carnival yesterday. The streets in the town were lined with people and the parade a long one that had filled up the Central Car Park even before we began with a variety of floats and groups in a wide variety of garbs and vehicles; good to see so many friends on other floats though it did leave us a bit light.



We had up to 1,000 bus and train timetable brochures covering all scheduled public transport in Melksham, and finished the day with only a handful left. Four of us (thank you Sharon, Daniel and Justin who walked with me) handed them out to eager hands who reached out for them; in the crowds, we may have missed a few of you in the speed and density of the event, and if so there are copies available at the TIC, the library, the Town Hall and the Melksham Without offices. Melksham Community Bus, Whitley Reading Rooms, Bowerhill Village Hall and some others may have a few copies remaining too.  And copies can also be downloaded from https://www.passenger.chat/mirror/mrug_ttbook_202605.pdf

Melksham has a really varied public transport offering these days - far better for the most part than when I first got involved 20 years ago.   That's a natural progression for the future; I am lucky to have been around though these changes, though elements are still "work in progress".  But, please, use the buses and trains this summer!   The brochure has 4 pages of suggestions - Buses to Lacock, Bradford-on-Avon, Avebury and Stonehenge, to Bath and to Wells. Trains to Cardiff, Southampton, Clifton Down, Gloucester, Weymouth and London.  It also includes travel advice for Bristol, Gatwick, Stansted and Heathrow airports and for ports at Harwich, Portsmouth, Newhaven and Southampton. Please use your public transport and contact us if your would like further help or advice.

 

Which reminds me of a, very probably apocryphal, story - on t'interweb of course - concerning a homeowner who returns to find a vehicle parked on their drive. The homeowner places his vehicle across the driveway access and waits for the inevitable. Owner of errant vehicle knocks on the door and demands that the homeowner move his car. This request receives a negative response, and after a prolonged argument the 'illegal parker' carries out his threat to call the police. Coppers arrive and knock on the door with, presumably, a view to asking the homeowner to shift his car. Homeowner declines to so do on the basis that they are far too intoxicated to move their vehicle even a short distance on the public highway and produces a number of empty beer cans in support of his claim. The police inform both parties that there is nothing further they can do and leave.

The story as submitted failed to state how long the errant vehicle remained trapped. Even if true I am pretty sure the tale originated in the USofA so it is entirely possible the UK police response would be somewhat different (e.g. not bothering to turn up at all  ).

 

At great risk of annoying a couple of dozen 'Druids' who must surely possess protected characteristics that would stop this.

Also, being somebody whose knowledge of all things astronomical is pretty limited, would moving the stones have any impact on the solstice festivities?

 
My initial reaction was it would be b) from the original list of options based on what I thought I had read in the past.

Going to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/routeing-guide/ and reading Section A, in my view, the via point on a ticket can restrict the choice of routes to a subset of permitted routes (i.e. via the via point). That means a) of the choices in the original post. It is mute on the situation where the via point is not included in the permitted routes.

Reading Section F, it includes an example of a fare routed via London and that correlates closely with b) of the choices in the original post.

Overall then, c) is the closest match IMO; having said that the Consumer Rights Act mandates that if a term is unclear it must be interpreted in the way most favourable to the consumer.

Just my 2p/interpretation. YMMV!

 
70 members a day logged in to our forum ... but very few votes (less than a half of the number we get in most polls). I don't know of that's because the poll was posted at a busy time and rapidly fell off the 'front page', or whether members weren't inspired or comfortable to answer. Personally speaking, I go a bit for the latter.  (( Edit to add - perhaps it's the subject line?? ))

The current train services, with so many cancellations and part runs, are something that I'm at a loss to suggest a solid fix for, and I can't see a quick fix, even if money were to be thrown at the issue.  And the problems are made that much worse by just how popular train travel has become - passenger numbers growing but available, running trains shrinking and the result is hideous overcrowding on a small proportion of trains.  But therein lies another problem.

300 people turn up for a 2 carriage train and 300 people get upset because it really can't cope, whereas another 2 carriage train with just 50 passengers and it works very well - but only 50 people report it to be satisfactory ... and some of them will return home as part of the bigger crowd and THAT is what they will report.  In the example, 50% of trains are overcrowded, but 86% report overcrowding and dissatisfaction.

So how did our voting go? 

100   Infrastructure, track and trains that can cope better with modern weather better should be acquired   
71   More trains should be available to better cope with failures   
43   Bus and train companies should work much better together to provide alternatives   
29   We should lower our hopes and expectations   
29   Key skeleton services (all stations, every 2 hours?) should be guaranteed   
14    Timetables should be reduced for summer and winter months to cope with weather extremes   
14   We should accept that timetables are much more guidance than rules   
14   Train services should start earlier, finish later and have a break in the middle of the day   
0   We should cut routes into short sections to reduce the spread of delays and cancellations
0   None of the above

Members were able to vote for multiple options and averaged 3.  100% of them (that's the first column) suggested that track and trains able to cope with modern (changed) weather should be acquired.  Of the 9 options offered, everyone who voted considered we should take at least one action - no votes at all for "None of the above".

But we have had 20 YEARS of the same team of First Group (as FGW then GWR) running our trains - they took over on 1st April 2006, and for all of those 20 years the Department for Transport have been seen / cast (with questionable allocation of blame) as the culprits in allowing the setup to "fail" in the way it is doing.  Or is it failing?  Should I accept that there will be days like Friday - 2 days ago - when 4 trains out of 18 were cancelled at my local station because there wasn't a working train available at all, or today - Sunday - when 4 trains out of 14 are already cancelled (I'm writing this at first light) because there aren't staff available to work the train.  Should we accept that providing a service that always runs as it is advertised and with capacity to take everyone is an expensive business, and that a service that works 80% of the time is adequate and affordable, and indeed people will still use it.

And people do want and use the public transport we have.  Early yesterday evening, I walked around Melksham in the Carnival Parade handing out bus and train timetables. Huge thanks to Sharon, Justin and Daniel walking with me to hand them out.  They ONLY went to those who wanted them - we were offering them and not thrusting them at people, many hands came out and we were rationing to one per family / group. We still handed out around 900 - perfectly to plan - though the parade at times moved too quickly for us to even skim-offer to every group.

One question asked of me "why aren't you running the Weymouth trains this year?".  Well - they ARE running every Saturday - there's a trough train from Melksham to Weymouth at 09:10, returns at 19:38 and it's a lovely day.  But we aren't promoting it hard and we're leaving a market untapped.  Because the train is already full and standing for the last segment of the journey into Weymouth in the morning, and we are not going to be irresponsible and cause a problem.   This year that train is 3 carriages all the way; in previous years it was 5, 6 and even 8 carriages.  If you are reading this, please don't be put off going - at Melksham there is plenty of space as there is on the evening return, you WILL get on and get a good seat both ways.

At times there are busy buses too, but they are now far more reliable than the trains.  That's perverse, seeing as they have to share road infrastructure with other congesting traffic rather than having a private right of way. And to and from Melksham for shorter journeys, the bus is dominant.  It has improved hugely over the years on the main arteries. Modern technologies such as MyTrip and Tiger offer an undreamed of ability to learn of disruption and work / travel in different ways and work with and around them.   Pure luxury, and time saving, to be able to sit at home, learn of disruption, and only go to the railway station -  or out to the bus stop for a running service.

But there remains - and 43% of my sample suggested it - a need for better information flows across all public transport.  The Melksham Bus and Train timetable - bringing together all six operators - is reached out for by people, they love having everything in one place.  Contrast that to a friend travelling to Melksham yesterday to assist in the Carnival parade.  His train into Chippenham was delayed and he was 60 minutes after his plan into there.  Which meant that the half past three train had gone and the next one would be 6 O'clock.  He asked for advice from the station staff who (I'm sure were polite) had nothing to offer, and by the time he walked out to the bus stops to see what they had to offer, he was in time to see the 16:35 bus for Melksham just leaving.

Conclusions?  None, I'm afraid.  The local bus operators are actually doing rather well.  The train system is failing to deliver a reliable service with the capacity that people are turning up to use.  And whilst we are moving on from a company operated system to a nationalised system, it's the same managers who have failed to deliver for 20 years who will still be there, reporting to the same government ministry that has failed - for 20 years - to guide and regulate the provision.  Some things are better, but realistically I have little hope of much improvement in reliability or capacity while at the same time some people are desperate to have a system that works for them, and indeed will put up with a system that includes a degree of failure to deliver on timetable, reliability, capacity and other promises.

 

That's a fair point, perhaps everyone should get more than one chance to reach their full potential when it comes to a political career, irrespective of previous dishonest behaviour.

Take Peter Mandelson for example.

 

 
It was a bit silly building it so close  to the A303, causing all the distractions and tailbacks whilst people slow to look.

In all seriousness, I don’t get the hype. I definitely wouldn’t pay money to see them.

 

Do you know the cost of such a barrier  ?? Plus upkeep, etc, etc. Others, and their visitors, have right of way down the road (we have NO problem whatsoever with these people, they park on their property).

As I said earlier, the biggest problem is the LAW - it operates in the interests of the BIG car park operators.................including Councils. It is also riddled with loopholes which allow the cowboy clampers to operate............YOU try getting (from DVLA) the details of the owner of a vehicle that keeps on parking on your front drive.

"Preventing" these people is relatively easy.....................but the LAW won't let us do it !

 

Fireflies perhaps ?

 
The date for the interchange to open is muted as the 30 August 2026 and for 175s to take over plus a diagram to Barnstaple.

 
Of all the bypass plans one of the best was a northern bypass near Larkhill and Bullford Camps which would have passed the new visitor centre which wasn't even thought of then. This was the 1980s when stretches of the A303 were being dualled which lasted for about 10 years then no more dualling.
I think the Army must have objected in case a tank thought the cars were a shooting gallery.

 

 
Only half an hour if you came for that train; 59 minutes if you just missed one. Barnstaple has a 2 hour gap tonight
and has become unreliable on Saturdays lately.

I saw at Paignton they were loading up the local trains with bottled water for customers. They keep a shed load at Paignton.

Last night because of trespassers (sheep and humans) on the track near Dawlish that stopped everything for nearly 75 minutes. A 175 working Penzance-Exeter with two sets from Plymouth was forced to curtail a training run from Exeter-Paignton-Exeter-Exmouth-Exeter-Laira to just Exeter-Exmouth-Plymouth. Both units stayed in the platform until one went off to Penzance and the other Newquay today. Reliability of some units has improved. If they can do the same with all of them there will be spare units.
They have been to all parts of the "Devon Metro" except Exmouth siding and Goodrington Sidings; a previous run there was cancelled because the train wasn't available. Paignton Sands Road is manually worked; pushing the buttons.

 
 think we all support her don't we? I don't read any dissent on that above

 
People are allowed more than one phone.

People are also allowed to gwt on with their work and lives after their period of rehabilition, be that legal or political. One in four people have a criminal record.

 
Bear in mind that operators will be contracted to their ROSCOs to maintain their units - that includes various exams etc & refreshes. Being nationalised won't terminate these contracts which will & are continuing...hence these refreshes etc looking 'odd' timing wise - it'll be because their lease contracts require it.

 
I think they would have looked good if they had just put green vinyl over the red.

 

No doubt she'll be sitting next to her phone (one of them!) hoping it'll ring! 

 

Compounds the profligacy.

The sort of thing people should bear in mind and reflect on when howling for more money for the railways.

 

 

I'm not as against the new GBR livery as some, but it's not a patch on the beautiful GWR one, so I for one will be happy to see it for as long as possible.

I think that green will be the dominant colour in the west for a long while, with small (hopefully) GBR vinyls slapped on top.

And a waste of money?  Perhaps that could be labelled at Chiltern who are busy slapping their new/adapted livery on their entire fleet of 168s and 'Explorers' currently...and they only have 2 months left as a TOC!

 

I live in the Reading BC sector of Tilehurst and would have liked to have seen the WBC part bought under Reading.  Time was when I would see a WBC mobile library plying its trade 900 yards from me, though Reading Library is less than four miles away and Tilehurst Library (run by Reading) less than a mile.  Not so sure about Purley, but Theale is divided from Reading by the M4.  Calcot is the RBC side of the M4, so should be part of the borough.

 

Loud applause, agree 100%.

In the case of Plymouth, Tudor Evans is relishing the opportunity to expand his empire.

 
Excellent news if Louise Haigh gets a cabinet position.